Non-muslims should not be in Boko haram committee – Prof Oloyede

Professor Ishaq Oloyede, former vice-chancellor of the University of Ilorin and currently the Secretary-General of the Nigeria Supreme Council for Islamic Affairs, talks about his life experiences in this interview with ADEOLA BALOGUN

You said you were very busy despite the fact that you have left office as the vice chancellor of the University of Ilorin; is it as a result of your new office as the scribe of the Nigeria Supreme Council for Islamic Affairs?

It is because I am doing so many things concurrently, so I think that accounts for it. I have commitments both within and outside the country; some academic, some professional, some religious. So, having so many things to do, I have to make sure I allot my time in such a way that none of those who have confidence in me is betrayed.

What is the challenge in your new office?

Every office has its own challenge and prospects. I don’t think there is any challenge that is insurmountable. What we need to do is to position the council in such a way that every Muslim in the country will know that it represents their interests and we should also be able to adequately interact with people of other faiths, government and other similar bodies outside Nigeria with a view to being an active member of the global Ummah. That is what I believe is a task which we are committed to do.

Is the organisation disturbed at all about the insurgency of Boko Haram in the country?

The council is disturbed about the general insecurity in the country. This morning, I was telling a reporter how depressed I was with the kidnap of  Archbishop Katie and I was saying that if such a person could be kidnapped in this country, we better look deeper into what is happening and look at the causes and address them rather than the symptoms that we appear to be addressing. I think insecurity is coming in different shades in different parts of the country. Unfortunately, it doesn’t appear to me that we have correct attitude to some of these problems. I see people in position of authority where their partisanship is too obvious; there are crimes committed everywhere and criminals should be dealt with as criminals but if we now have leaders who because of whatever reason tend to demonise a group, then, you complicate matters and it becomes difficult to identify what is happening and solve the problem. On the issue of Boko Haram, no Muslim will perpetuate what we see happening and we have said so many times but those who are hell bent on demonising Islam will arrive at conclusion the moment something happens even before investigation just to criminalise those they want to even when facts emerge later in the contrary. Nigerians who have been convicted outside the country for terrorism carried out in Nigeria are not Muslims. The unfortunate thing is that the security agents are very quick at covering up anyone that is found to have committed terrorism once he is not a Muslim. If the name does not look like a Muslim name, the government will want to look the other way and pretend it never happened. What I have discovered is that so many of these so-called security agents are being compromised and influenced in such a way that they no longer operate as neutral agents. What they do is that they have become agents of a party. Let me give you instances; you can determine who will be what. Even in the military now, when postings are being done, you know where they will not post a Muslim; where they will post a Muslim. Admission into the Nigeria Defence Academy is being done now, go and look at the spread, you will discover that even in Muslim dominated areas, efforts have been made to pick non-Muslims from those places. That is too obvious and too pedestrian. I know that there are people who have put themselves in positions of authority and they are using the name of the President to commit a lot of atrocities. I also blame the President of Nigeria for this because if I were the President, I would be observant enough not to commit such atrocities in my name or the name of my government. NSCIA does not make noise but quietly writes to the authorities about its observation and reservation.

The President of the Christian Association of Nigeria, Ayo Oritsejafor, has come out a number of times to say that prominent Muslims probably support Boko Haram because they have not openly condemned their activities.

I have a lot of respect for the president of CAN but we have different attitude to issues. I believe that is how it appears to him but that is not the truth. Muslims have condemned what they believe is wrong; insecurity in the country, mass killings of people irrespective of their religion. At times I get confused; as a Muslim scholar, I believe we should be able to dissect this issue of Boko Haram and know what it is. Government initially said they did not have access to them; that they are faceless but by now, a large number of them are in government custody, can’t they grant access to those of us who know what Islam is to these people, to interact with them to be able to know what it is? But rather than do this, they set up a committee; I have no qualms about that, but it is more political than technical. For instance, as an Islamic scholar, if I want to interact with such people, I will do so as a Muslim and successfully. I don’t think we need a non Muslim to do that if we want to get the correct stuff from them. But you set up a committee and in the name of satisfying some people, you still end up losing at both ends because the right thing is not done. It will be funny for anyone to say that Muslim leaders are not doing sufficiently because we are also victims. Look at what is happening in Maiduguri where JTF is using civilians to confront Boko Haram elements; you are putting people to task for which they are not equipped and you are also creating another monster. It appears to me that when there is a problem in this country, anything is a solution, including a greater problem.  I was sad to learn how a number of the civilian JTF were slaughtered; these people are not trained for God’s sake. The issue is beyond what some people are saying that it is the almajiris that are perpetuating Boko Haram, those who are not educated. The type of atrocities being committed by Boko Haram, do you think uneducated people could do those things? It may be part of the story but there is a greater story that we have not yet analysed. With the trend of what is happening, definitely, there must be a group of educated people who know what they are doing behind Boko Haram. I think we need to sit down and get the whole picture rather than taking the pedestrian approach. I believe the problem calls for a scientific approach and neutrality on the side of the people in position. There should be no preconceived partisan goal in the exercise of what is happening. I think the earlier the President takes action, the better for the country. As far as we are concerned, no place is secure in the country, north or south, what we need to do is to be just and give the youths their due. Insecurity is becoming a global phenomenon which should be addressed but at the same time, the intensity here calls for a very passionate and statesman approach rather than trying to make a demon of a group of people saying they are Muslims. Are the Muslims the ones kidnapping people in the east and south? What happens in this country is that once you commit a crime you run to your group, be it religious or ethnic, the colouration is given to it and those who are supposed to take a decision would allow sentiment to becloud them.

But do you blame non-Muslims for demonising Islam when they watch videos of how Boko Haram kills people mentioning the name of Allah?

Are you not aware of so many people who are committing atrocity and they claim they are Christians, has Christianity been demonised? I think criminals should be addressed as criminals and be treated as such. If I get out of here now and proclaim I am an Igbo leader and the Igbos say no, he is not one of us, the fact that I keep on saying I am an Igbo leader does not make me Igbo. When some people make claims that they are Muslims committing crime and majority of Muslim community come out and say no, from what these people are doing, they do not represent us but you keep on saying Islamic militants.

Some people have said Boko Haram is the political agenda of the north. So, if you say Boko Haram is not Islamic or religious. As an Islamic scholar, what then is it?

I can’t say so. I think what we need to do is to have a study of the phenomenon to know what actually happened. Their leader who could have been a good material was killed without  due process. I think some people are compounding the problem; they don’t want people to get to the root of the insurgency because they are taking advantage of the situation. But every soul that is unjustly killed would have to be paid for and if you do not pay in this world, you would pay in hard currency in the hereafter.  And that is why people should be sincere in addressing the problem. As far as we are concerned, we need to study what is happening; it is obvious that there is youth restiveness all over the place, that can be  part of it but we need to look deeply, do a scholastic investigation to look at the Boko Haram people; what is the basis of what they are doing? What is the theological basis of what they are doing? Because you want to fight a person, you kill hundreds of innocent souls, including Muslims. Even if you claim that you are fighting for Islam, are you not undoing the religion in that way? Another level is that which type of Islam will not respect our Christian brothers as people of the Books that Islam asks us to respect?  What justification would you have to destroy their places of worship when almighty Allah has expressly asked you not to do? But in a situation where things are muddled up, such things are glossed over.

The CAN applauded the declaration of emergency in the three northern states, what is your take on that?

Of course, CAN might applaud it if it satisfies the interest of the body but as far as I am concerned, if government is sincere, I can not see the reason for the declaration of emergency in a place like Adamawa. It doesn’t make sense to me but the government is in a better position to know.  But in other places, if state of emergency is necessary to address the issue, let’s support the government to make sure that is done. But in Nigeria even when you do the right thing, you also give room for suspicion by going outside it to address some issues. The excuse given for the declaration of emergency in Adamawa, as far as I am concerned, is not convincing. I believe it is suspicious but be that as it may, let us leave the issue of justification or not and see how we can quickly solve the problem. Government should be careful and sensitive to issues of partisanship that is becoming more obvious.

Before you assumed office and throughout your tenure as the VC of the University of Ilorin, the local branch of ASUU was never part of any national strike, is it a rule there that lecturers are barred from interacting with their colleagues outside?

I can not speak for Unilorin; it is not my practice to talk for a place that I had done my own bit. I think that question is better addressed to the VC of the university.  All I can say is that Unilorin when I was there and up till now, the administration, the staff and students are all committed making sure that the university is functional and global in nature and responsive to the aspirations of the founding fathers. As you have said, I came in at a time, I met what was on ground and made my little contributions and it is left for posterity to judge. I have left the place and those who are currently in the place should be able to answer such question but I know that everyone in the place is committed to better condition of service for staff; better educational provision and facilities for the students and making the larger community benefit from the establishment of the university. Whatever that takes, I believe that the university will continue to be a model.

So what is your take on the current strike by ASUU as a professor or do you pretend not to be aware of the reason given by your colleagues to embark on the strike?

As far as I am concerned, my opinion is that it is always better to dialogue and solve problems; the end does not justify the means. It is always good to dialogue and find solutions to problems. If doctors are on strike and innocent lives are lost, I do not think a doctor or a group of doctors would beat their chests and jubilantly say they have achieved their purpose because they are paid. I think that will be blood money. We must prevent loss of innocent lives  and if we can avert the strike, the better for all of us. I believe that we need to look at such essential services and address the problem in such a way that there will be no justification of any type for anybody going on strike particularly at the cost that is irreplaceable. I believe that the two parties should come together and ensure that students don’t suffer for a crime they did not commit and I believe that reasoning should prevail. There should be no extremism on the part of any of the two parties. At times, I believe government gets confused in response to issues. If you are talking of autonomy, at a point, you were negotiating with the union directly but at a certain stage, you started doing so through the representatives of the councils and these representatives were not selected by the councils themselves but by government. So, rather than representing the councils, they remained loyal to the government that selected them. At another stage, you were negotiating with the chairmen of council and you were telling them what to do and so on. At another stage, you brought in the vice chancellors when the matter had gone beyond the VCs. I believe there should be a structured, well thought-out response to the issue of strikes in the tertiary institutions. In the case of the universities, if you grant autonomy, let the autonomy be total but because the government over the years had destroyed all institutions; so the universities are the only remaining institution left that they can use to satisfy the people. That is why they now locate universities haphazardly in their local governments and their hometowns. I believe that government should have a long term approach. We no longer have a centralised structure in the public service because of indiscriminate salary structures all over the place. If you want the universities to run as universities and you want to grant them autonomy, let the autonomy be total. There are so many critical issues but I am not sure that under a conflict situation, you can solve the problem. Problems are solved when there is no conflict and tension but once there is no strike, government goes to bed until when there is another crisis and government begins to run helter skelter.  As far as I am concerned, I believe we need to be scientific in our response to problems in tertiary institutions.

Many of those who passed through Unilorin have said so many wonderful things about you but some say Professor Oloyede could be a dictator in his style of administration. Why would people say that about you?

It is possible because anybody is free to make comment on how they feel. As far as I was concerned, I was given a mandate and I did it to the best of my ability. Anybody is free to interpret the way they like and for every good thing, if you have 10 people clapping for you, you should expect one or two saying otherwise. For every good thing you do in this country, you must step on toes of the bad ones and those bad ones have the right to make noise including creating fictions. It is natural that since I am not God, I am not expected to be perfect. Anybody is free to put any label but as far as I am concerned, I will do anything I am asked to do sincerely at any point in time and give my best to it and take the best option at any time. So somebody who has not been there may not know how it runs and let them contest to be VC and let’s see how less dictator they are.

Now that all our tertiary institutions are virtually bedevilled by cultism…

Not all our institutions; Unilorin is not part of them and if that is as a result of dictatorship, don’t you think that that dictatorship is good? If at the end of the tenure with all that we attained, and all what somebody can say is to say one is a dictator, doesn’t that look awkward? I know I am not a dictator in any form but that does not stop anybody from labelling me a dictator. It depends on  the side of the law such a person might be. So if somebody does what is wrong and you insist that he must be punished, of course, such person will see you as a dictator particularly if he can influence others but finds it difficult to influence you.

As a student in Unilorin and then rose to become the VC, is it that there is a structure there that specifically looks out for elimination of any element of cultism?

I think the university is always proactive and I believe that the real issue is that you have to be disciplined as administrators and students alike. If for instance, some people claim they are supporting you as VC and they commit aggression against another party and you say you will close your eyes because they are supporting you, that is where it starts. But if people know that it does not matter whether you are a friend or a foe, there are things that you must not do. Once you cross that line, whoever you are or whoever your parents are, you are firmly dealt with. So people will know that you don’t joke and if they know that you are not doing it selectively, of course, they will sit up. If what happens in government where government protects thugs against other thugs is allowed to happen in the university, that is the propagation of cultism. If people know that violence is abhorred, and whoever engages in it is going, there will be discipline. In the University of Ilorin, you can have students shouting on one another but anybody knows that once  you slap the other person, it doesn’t matter the reason, you are out of the university. How do you have a concentration of thousands of youths and you do not have discipline, there will be anarchy. You require a firm discipline to control them from exhibiting exuberance.  When I was VC, there were children of prominent people that violated the laws of the university, of course, they had to go. Of course, some of those who had the courage to speak to me, would have no good thing to say about me because as far as I was concerned, there was nothing I could do. As an administrator too, one is supposed to be discipled because if the VC is known to be collecting bribes or sleeping with all the small girls that are supposed to be under your custody, of course, you are compromising. And you will not be able to take hard decisions because of fear of being exposed. So, I believe when you are firm and insist on discipline, you are bound to be called all sorts of names.

Some say you are also an Islamic fundamentalist...

Whatever it is, I think they are free to give their own label. As far as I am concerned, what is good is good and what is bad is bad and I will treat everybody on the basis of fairness without sentiment. You would have your fair treatment with me and it doesn’t matter the religion you claim. Anybody who says such a thing in his own mind about me is not saying the truth. Those who know me closer will tell you that it does not matter what you profess, what is important to me is doing things right. If you are lazy, of what value will you be to me even if you are the imam of my mosque? As a student of Islamics, I will not do what is not right at any time because Islam teaches you what is right at all times and you can not use Islamic brotherhood to perpetrate injustice against others. I have imbibed from Islam the correct approach to life and as far as public office is concerned, you must be sincere and just in your dealings.

Is it not amazing that an Islamic scholar like you has just one wife, why?

I think being polygenious which some people call polygamy is not brought by Islam. What Islam did was to put a limit that you may have more than one but whatever it is, you can not have more than four. But unfortunately, those who don’t understand Islam misunderstand that Islam instituted polygamy. Islam does not compel anyone to have more than one but to put a limit of four at most. For me,  I’m doing what is Islamic because it is not unislamic to have one wife. In fact, it is unislamic to marry more than your capacity. There are responsibilities attached such as financial, emotional and physical responsibilities before you can marry more than one. You can’t just pack women like sardines in a place because everyone of them should be treated equally and adequately. As far as I am concerned, I am satisfied with having one wife. I have heard rumours that maybe I had a wife somewhere; I don’t even have a girlfriend or a mistress anywhere. I am preparing to go back to my God and I don’t have time for any other market that I will not be able to finish. 

Culled: PUNCH